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kris_reidНемного про ФБР и "пресловутую" бойню в Майами.
The 115 gr Silvertip did meet the FBI penetration/expansion requirements at that time. It's just that the FBI's protocol was completely different than what it was after Miami. Prior to Miami the FBI was pushing the RII and their computerman model. That was all about rapid expansion/limited penetration. It was after the Miami shootout that the FBI changed their requirements.
With the FBI nearly everything is a pendulum. They swing to one side, then people change positions and they swing to the opposite side. Rarely do they settle in the middle.
Here's some history.
My agency issued the same 115 Silvertip in 1980. Remember now that everyone, including the FBI, was preaching rapid expansion/limited penetration as the optimum rd. During a shootout in Joliet IL with a biker the Silvertip performed exactly as it was designed, ie, rapid expansion/limited penetration. The biker who was wearing a leather vest over a leather jacket was hit 11 times in the torso from a distance of about 20 ft (length of the squad car). None of the rds penetrated to the vitals nor would have been fatal. The biker died but it was from a heart attack from clogged arteries due to his less than healthy life style. We immediately pulled the Silvertip from service and went with the Federal BP, later BPLE.
A few years later the FBI decided they were going to the 9mm. Our range guys took the file of our Joliet shooting to Quantico to show the FBI our results of the Silvertip. The FBI didn't care. They sent our guys packing. The FBI "knew" what was the best round because they had the formula, ie RII, and their famed computerman which proved the Silvertip was the best round. There was no discussing it with them. It didn't matter that at that time we'd already been using the 9mm for 20 years, had about 2000 9mm on the street doing the job, and had more shootings with the rd than the FBI over a period of many years. We had the street results. The FBI had a formula and a computerman. They didn't want to hear about what we had learned. Street results didn't matter, they had "science" to prove their point. About a year later Miami happened and the FBI learned what he had learned 6 years previous and had tried to show them. The difference is our people went home afterwards.
P.S. Кто не в теме, читать можно тут:
https://warhead.su/2018/08/08/gollivud-otdyhaet-zhivye-mertvetsy-protiv-tolpy-agentov-fbr
https://warhead.su/2018/12/09/promah-s-desyatkoy-kak-fbr-oblomalos-pri-vybore-patrona
The 115 gr Silvertip did meet the FBI penetration/expansion requirements at that time. It's just that the FBI's protocol was completely different than what it was after Miami. Prior to Miami the FBI was pushing the RII and their computerman model. That was all about rapid expansion/limited penetration. It was after the Miami shootout that the FBI changed their requirements.
With the FBI nearly everything is a pendulum. They swing to one side, then people change positions and they swing to the opposite side. Rarely do they settle in the middle.
Here's some history.
My agency issued the same 115 Silvertip in 1980. Remember now that everyone, including the FBI, was preaching rapid expansion/limited penetration as the optimum rd. During a shootout in Joliet IL with a biker the Silvertip performed exactly as it was designed, ie, rapid expansion/limited penetration. The biker who was wearing a leather vest over a leather jacket was hit 11 times in the torso from a distance of about 20 ft (length of the squad car). None of the rds penetrated to the vitals nor would have been fatal. The biker died but it was from a heart attack from clogged arteries due to his less than healthy life style. We immediately pulled the Silvertip from service and went with the Federal BP, later BPLE.
A few years later the FBI decided they were going to the 9mm. Our range guys took the file of our Joliet shooting to Quantico to show the FBI our results of the Silvertip. The FBI didn't care. They sent our guys packing. The FBI "knew" what was the best round because they had the formula, ie RII, and their famed computerman which proved the Silvertip was the best round. There was no discussing it with them. It didn't matter that at that time we'd already been using the 9mm for 20 years, had about 2000 9mm on the street doing the job, and had more shootings with the rd than the FBI over a period of many years. We had the street results. The FBI had a formula and a computerman. They didn't want to hear about what we had learned. Street results didn't matter, they had "science" to prove their point. About a year later Miami happened and the FBI learned what he had learned 6 years previous and had tried to show them. The difference is our people went home afterwards.
P.S. Кто не в теме, читать можно тут:
https://warhead.su/2018/08/08/gollivud-otdyhaet-zhivye-mertvetsy-protiv-tolpy-agentov-fbr
https://warhead.su/2018/12/09/promah-s-desyatkoy-kak-fbr-oblomalos-pri-vybore-patrona
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Date: 2020-09-17 10:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-09-18 08:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-09-18 03:31 am (UTC).....was wearing a leather vest over a leather jacket was hit 11 times in the torso from a distance of about 20 ft (length of the squad car). None of the rds penetrated to the vitals nor would have been fatal - а я всегда смеялся в компьютерных игрушках над "кожаной броней"...
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Date: 2020-09-18 06:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-09-18 06:41 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2020-09-18 06:42 am (UTC)Одно время удачно купленный на распродаже зимний мотокомбез таскал в -25 и далее - там, правда, не кожа была, а кордура с усилением. Заодно очень кстати оказалась, когда собачка попыталась за ногу тяпнуть - даже не почувствовал.
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Date: 2020-09-18 06:56 am (UTC)Вот как работать такого вот пидора упакованного без спецсредств я даже и не знаю...
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Date: 2020-09-18 07:27 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2020-09-18 04:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-09-18 06:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-09-18 06:49 am (UTC)"I like Harrell but his "meat target" schtick is a real groaner. Obviously every slab of meat is going to a bit different and he rarely shoots more than a few shots. It would take a hundred pigs worth of meat targets to come close to statistical relevance IMO, something he could do much more reliably in gelatin. True, I won't be attacked by gelatin but I won't be attacked by a pork wrapped watermelon, either."
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Date: 2020-09-18 06:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-09-18 09:22 am (UTC)Добавлю:
1. Не сказать, чтобы прямо пинают, скорее, облаивают издалека - прямых претензий вида "Пол, твоя мясная мишень полное говно, перестань" никто не высказал по большому счету (или я не видел). Критикуют недостаточную повторяемость результатов - разное мясо, разные ребра, разное место попадания и тп будут влиять. Харрелл на это всё показывает средний палец в камеру.
2. Желатин позволяет померять дырку линейкой в условных попугаях - пожалуй, это его единственное крупное преимущество. (Еще он дешевле, проще в изготовлении и использовании, прозрачный для видеосъемки и тп.) Ранее для оценки действия по цели использовали целую гамму средств - глину, доски, трупы животных и людей, живых животных, даже свинец. Если интересно и позволяет английский, можно почитать диссертацию дяденьки Jorma Jussila из госпиталя Хельсинки
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.413.6250&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Другое дело, что эти условные попугаи дают только сравнительную оценку относительно какого-то эталона, а эти эталоны в свое время мощно отстреливали, см. например тесты Томпсона - ЛаГарды 1904 г. То есть мит таргет первична.
3. При этом всем даже самые отъявленные евангелисты баллистического геля не могут отрицать, что для хоть какого-то понимания, что пуля делает с живыми тканями, в этот самый гель пихают разные штуки - натуральные и искусственные кости, оборачивают кожей и тканью, делают имитации внутренних органов и тп - в диссертации [1] это все описано с картинками. Опять мит таргет, только в профиль.
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Date: 2020-09-18 06:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-09-18 06:36 am (UTC).32 просто позволял создать достаточно простые и компактные пистолеты на свободном затворе в то время, когда доступный набор сталей еще не давал спокойно впихнуть в те же габариты .380, не говоря уж о 9х19. Насчет его "прекрасной работы" ни у кого иллюзий не было.
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Date: 2020-09-18 06:58 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2020-09-18 08:10 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2020-09-18 06:46 am (UTC)Хм, а кожаная броня, я гляжу - вполне себе броня!
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Date: 2020-09-18 07:02 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2020-09-18 07:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-09-18 07:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-09-18 08:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-09-20 01:36 am (UTC)Но понятно, что no penetration - no incapacitation.
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Date: 2020-09-20 02:04 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2020-09-20 01:19 pm (UTC)